It has mostly been regarded that in order for your podcast to be a tremendous success, it has to land to a prestigious spot in the New and Noteworthy section on iTunes. Getting there used to be a lot easier until certain modifications have been made. In this episode, we take a deep dive on iTunes and how you can better position yourself on it. We want to discuss if there’s any specific algorithm or metrics as well as a general marketing campaign to get there. We also want to talk about this so-called “gatekeeper” at iTunes who calls the shot of who can get featured.

Let’s take a deep dive into iTunes. I don’t know how many of you have been told and I might have said it to you in the past, but I have been told that during the first eight weeks that your podcast is launched, you have this opportunity to get featured in iTunes’ or Apple Podcasts’ New and Noteworthy section. That used to be the case, but it has changed. You had to do this from either the app on your phone or in the desktop app of iTunes. It doesn’t matter if you’re on a Mac or a PC. In the desktop app of iTunes under podcasts, there’s this New and Noteworthy section.

The way it’s displayed to you, there’s this bar at the top and it scrolls a bit and there’s maybe a couple of dozen podcasts shown there and you can hit view all. If you view all, what used to happen is it was this long-tiled list of all the cover arts of every podcast in this New and Noteworthy section. It was almost exclusively new podcasts that are eight weeks old or less. When we first launched our first podcast a few years ago now, we went in there on a daily basis to check it out and see where are we. We would see ourselves rising in the ranks as we got more downloads and subscribers. Now that’s all gone. There were 1,500 to 2,000 podcasts at any given time on that New and Noteworthy section. This is in general, not in a specific category but across everything.

That no longer exists. There are now about 24 or 25 total podcasts in their New and Noteworthy section that’s in general for the entire site. Then if you go view a certain category, let’s say you want to look at a business podcast, you go and click on the business section. There is a New and Noteworthy for the business section. It has anywhere from 23 to 26 podcasts in there. I was curious as to why this changed. I did some research and I reached out to a few other companies. Some of them are consultants that pitched. They’re concierge services that if you want your podcast to be on the New and Noteworthy, they know how to get you there. It used to be a lot easier than it is now. They all admit they don’t know the exact formula for how to do it.

They don’t know exactly what iTunes is doing, but they know that a general marketing campaign, a serious high-end marketing campaign that’s costly is what it takes to get there. Some of them believe that. I don’t know that I completely believe that. I don’t know that there is a specific formula to get you there. I don’t have a lot of faith in these companies that say if you pay them a large amount of money, and I’m talking five-figure amount of money, that they can get you in that New and Noteworthy. I’m going to tell you why in a minute because I have some anecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise. There have also been a lot of reports written in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal over the last few years, how there is one person at Apple who’s the gatekeeper at iTunes of who can get featured on New and Noteworthy or you see in those paid advertised spots in the banner at the very top where they’re promoting certain podcasts.

I saw Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast, Revisionist History up there. Those are definitely paid spots. New and Noteworthy also may not be always a paid thing with Apple, but there are people at Apple that have decided for whatever reason, there are a few podcasts they think deserve to be in New and Noteworthy and they allow them to be there. I don’t know that there’s any specific algorithm or metrics that can get you there. I’ll tell you first what I definitely know is true and then I’m going to come back to this New and Noteworthy because it’s with some interesting evidence. That is that there’s another way you can look at the podcast in a certain category. Let’s say, I stay in the business category for a second. You go on iTunes, click on the business category and on the sidebar there on the right side that has top podcasts. You click on top podcasts, it will bring up a list of the top 200 podcasts in any category and any subcategory.

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If you’re in business investing, you can go look at that one too. Those top 200 podcasts in every category, that I’m quite certain is a result of the number of downloads the podcasts are getting over periods of time. As well as other indicators that they look at the number of subscribers a podcast has, which iTunes will never tell you how many you have. That’s unfortunate but they know. They’ll also do it not only based on how many subscribers. How many downloads are one more piece of criteria? The other one is how many reviews you get in total and how many reviews you’ve had lately and how good those reviews are. iTunes has its own algorithm and how they analyze all that and determine what the top 200 podcasts are in any category.

I’m happy to say there are lots of Brandcasters customers that are up in there, most notably in the general business marketing and management category. The Business Building Rockstars Show called the BBR, by Nicole Holland. She’s a Brandcasting client and she’s up there. The last time I checked, she’s around 146 out of 200. We have a general real estate investment podcasts called Passive Real Estate Investing by Marco Santarelli. He’s about number 25 in business investing category. His podcast is up there. I know that both of these Brandcasting clients are not doing any paid marketing other than working with us to produce their shows and their blog posts. They’re not doing any one of these programs that’s gotten them up there. Their rankings are organic and I’m happy to see that because it’s proving that the formula works.

Business Building Rockstars Show gets around 2,000 to 3,000 downloads a month. That’s not a whole lot. It’s not about downloads. Marco Santarelli’s Passive Real Estate Investing gets well over 10,000 downloads per episode. I think that business investing category is really competitive. Some are more or less competitive than others. Here’s where I want to get to, what’s been the mystery to me of this New and Noteworthy section. One of those same shows, the Business Building Rockstars Show by Nicole Holland, if you go into iTunes and click on the business category and look at their New and Noteworthy, her podcast has been in that New and Noteworthy section for more than two years straight and she has no idea why.

She has not paid anyone anything to get there. She hasn’t done anything out of the ordinary. She’s got a great show, no question. It’s got a cool name and her cover art looks cool. She’s got purple dyed hair, which is a little unusual, that you see there. We don’t know what of any of those factors are playing a role in that, but she’s been there for more than two years. Now there are only 23 or 24 and it’s weird it’s not the same number of podcasts in New and Noteworthy in every category. I’ve seen it range from about 23 to 26 podcasts now that are listed there and hers has been there consistently.

The only thing I could think of is someone at iTunes who’s in charge of this likes her show and they’re keeping it there. I can’t imagine it because it’s not new anymore. It’s a great podcast, but what makes it particularly noteworthy? I’m not knocking her podcasts in any way. It’s a good quality show. It doesn’t make sense that it would be there for two years straight. I even had another call from a high-level consultant that does serious high-level concierge marketing program for podcasters and a big-time author. This is expensive stuff. You’re definitely in at least $25,000 to $50,000 territory to market and get up there. She still sells and guarantees her clients that she can get you in New and Noteworthy. I was like, “How do you guarantee this?”

PDZ 15 | Position Yourself On iTunes

Position Yourself On iTunes: iTunes has their own algorithm in how they analyze and determine what the Top 200 podcasts are under any category.

 

She admits, “We don’t know exactly what’s working, but it happened with every show that it’s gotten in there.” They offer a money back guarantee. If a show doesn’t get into that New and Noteworthy, she’ll refund a portion of their fee, but she’s never had to do it. More power to her, but she doesn’t even know exactly what she’s doing that’s working there. It’s always going to change. We all know, even though we all learned some things about podcasting early on and best practices to get our shows known and up as high in the rankings as possible. The biggest one has to do with content.

Everybody that is selling a service to get shows ranked high in iTunes or to try and be in that New and Noteworthy section is saying, “You’ve got to do five shows a week and producing that level of content to be able to get there.” If you don’t do that, then your chances are slim at getting there. Nicole Holland’s Business Building Rockstars Show defies the odds on that because she’s doing one a week. Why is she still in the New and Noteworthy? It’s an anomaly or a mystery maybe is a better word. That was the main subject that I want to talk about now. It didn’t take very long, but it’s peeling back some of the realities of iTunes. They still guard everything very closely, all the data they have. They will never share the number of subscribers you have with you. There are more analytics you can get on shows, like are people listening all the way through your show?

The only thing that I want to add is that we have issues with different business models of it. Sometimes a new and notable model is necessary for your business to make money using podcasting. I want to set that out there that there are tons of ways to make money with your podcast or use your podcast within your business, but it doesn’t have to be, “I have to be at the top of the list of everything.” I get speaking engagements all over. I’ve been offered one for October in Hong Kong and I don’t have a best-selling book. Every model doesn’t require you to be on the top seller or the bestseller list.

As great as it is to be in the top 200 ranking in your category on iTunes or to be in New and Noteworthy, it’s not the primary goal. I don’t think of any of us that are podcasting to achieve that. Would it be nice? Yes. Do we all want to get as much exposure as possible? Yes. Do we want to reach as many people as possible? We do but you’re able to do that through podcasting, whether you’re high in those rankings or not or if you’re in the New and Noteworthy or not. A couple of notes for those of you that are hosted on or using our platform dashboard on Podetize in any way, most of you are, a couple of you may not be yet, is that we’ve been working on a redesign of that dashboard. Not only for the appearance of it, which is outdated looking and could use a design refresh for sure, but also from a user interface perspective. We’ve been taking in feedback from a lot of users. We’re trying to make improvements to make things a little more intuitive and make it easier to find things to navigate and to find your statistics.

We had a do-it-yourself customer from San Diego who didn’t even realize her statistics were there. She just scrolled further down the page. That was unfortunate. Now, she certainly knows where to find that. It brought up a good point that our dashboard needs to be very clear where you can find everything that you need to, to do what you need to do in an efficient manner. We’ve been taking in that feedback. You will see some changes. They won’t affect any of the functioning of your podcast publishing in any way. It should be happening. It’s coming up pretty soon before our next client call.

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In the next client call, most of you should have seen it, I might give a little guided tour of some of that especially for newer podcasters. Don’t be surprised if you see some changes and if you experience anything not working properly, let us know immediately. If you have my phone number you can call me or text me. If not, you can email Hello@BrandcastingYou.com or I’m at Tom@BrandcastingYou.com and Alexandra. Most of you have one or a number of our emails. Reach out to us any which way. If you have any issues, we want to deal with it right away, but there should be no functional changes. Everything should be seamless in that regard. If anybody wants to put a question, you can reach out to us. Whether it’s about iTunes and the subject we’re talking about now or anything else that you have a question you’d like to ask of us now, we’d love to hear from you. Sometimes we’re going to a longer deeper dive. I wanted to alert everyone because especially on iTunes, everybody keeps saying that the first eight weeks is critical and it’s no longer critical. I have an IAB compliant question.

We’ve been talking about my stats because my stats were around 12,000 a month now and that would peak at 800 to 1,000 a day. Then all of a sudden, at the end of April it flats like 150 to 300 per day. I had a question about. Then I posted on this Facebook group, Podcast Movement Community – For Podcasters, which is awesome. Someone wrote that it coincides with your host becoming IAB compliant. A lot of people have reported significant drops in the numbers after stricter policies were placed. I’m wondering if you’re getting more information about that.

We’ve certainly read a lot about that. Libsyn went through a big change and by January or February, they had changed their entire set stats system to be IAB compliant. We’ve researched and found ours is IAB compliant already. It’s a standard amongst the industry. It’s highly technical. I couldn’t even tell you the details of everything that it means. It’s the difference between measuring by impressions and what calculated as impressions way back when we’re talking about stats or how many views I had. It calculates basically saying that plays must be plays, whatever are considered plays or downloads, those terms are used interchangeably. Someone must actually bring it into the device for that to count or stream it and listen to it. It is not a reflection and it doesn’t change anything in regards to being able to measure actual listeners. That has nothing to do with it. It’s just doing exactly the same thing that everybody’s been measuring for a long time, which is downloads technically and not listens. It hasn’t changed any of that at all.

I also think though that in Libsyn’s case, it’s a big mistake for the shift that they’ve done. This is our personal viewpoint on this, but I think it’s an old school advertising model that hits into what radio ads do. It doesn’t play well with podcasts and the way podcasts are listened to and the value of that catalog and people who binge listen. It is very old school model and not rewarding the fact that you have an amazing catalog of podcasts that has tons of great information. People who find it goes from the beginning and listen to the whole thing. It’s like running a network television and using network television or Nielsen ratings instead of running and using Netflix’s own stats which make more sense and are highly valuable. That’s why we don’t hold a lot of stock into it, but because we use that API integration to track those numbers on our own server, we’re using an API that is IAB compliant already.

The stats data that we’re pulling is directly from the servers that the podcast files are being served to: iTunes, Google Play and all those places from. Because we’re serving those files if you’re hosted with us, which you are, Robert, then we know that in terms of the numbers of downloads you’re getting on a daily or weekly basis, those are accurate. I’ve noticed a drop right about at the same point in time as your show saw a drop in downloads in late April. Some of it was a little bit before April 24th. We’ve been wondering if this is coincidental or we’ve been trying to investigate it more and haven’t quite drawn complete conclusions yet. April 24th for a lot of listeners was a spike in downloads across a number of different podcasts. It’s very strange. Then after April 24th, it seemed much lower. We’ve seen that across a lot of podcasts but not all of them. Not enough that we are seeing a complete trend across the board on everything that would indicate what changed systemwide. There hasn’t been that indicators yet.

PDZ 15 | Position Yourself On iTunes

Position Yourself On iTunes: You can reach as many people as possible through podcasting, whether you’re high on those rankings or not, or if you’re a New and Noteworthy or not.

 

It was across podcasts hosted by multiple platforms, not just our platform. Other people that were on Libsyn before working with us have stayed on Libsyn. There’s one of those people on this call now and there’s no reason to fix what isn’t broken. If you’re happy with Libsyn, you may as well have stay hosted there if you’re not going to take ads or anything. We’ve noticed with a lot of Libsyn customers, because we have about half a dozen or more, that when this IAB compliant thing shifted, all of a sudden all Libsyn podcasts stats went way down in terms of the number of downloads being reported. That was pretty consistent across all Libsyn customers.

It stayed down except for the April 21st spike. It’s weird. I don’t know what happened in this entire industry on April 24th, but across the board it’s like everybody’s downloads went way up that day. I’m not convinced it’s genuine because there are so many different people have that spike on that day. It’s very strange. In your case, Robert, I know there is an issue, we’re still checking on the backend because when we migrated you, you had historical statistics that were added to the total counts. Unfortunately, some of the technical people have not been as available as usual and I may not have answers for you on that. I’m just trying to confirm and make sure all those baseline plays are accurately being added to the totals because I know you saw a big drop in the total number. That may have something to do with it, but also the fact that we moved a dozen of your shows to their own new feeds. Those stats would have moved with those episodes and decreased from your total, but not enough to make the total drop you’ve seen.

It lost like 80,000.

We’re checking into that. In terms of the plays in general on a regular basis, we’re obviously checking our systems and making sure that they’re accurate, which so far we believe they absolutely are. We’ve seen a number of different podcasts across the board in that April to May timeframe plays go way down and have not identified any common reason for that.

If you hear anything, please let me know.

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We certainly will if we hear anything. One thing that we know is the subscribers that you have who are regular listeners, whether they’re from iTunes or Stitcher or anywhere else, are still subscribed to your podcast. Unless they decided not to subscribe and they unsubscribed, I’m sure they’re still there and still listening. That’s worth checking because some of our podcasters have higher iTunes subscriptions than others. What happens is that iTunes and Stitcher and some of them have been putting in app changes.

Those changes will change the way that normal subscriptions happened, not downloading instead of downloading. They may have had an alteration on April 24th where all of a sudden he was downloading and everyone flipped out because it probably used too much power on their phone. These are all power play with the phones, using too much battery space while the download is happening. The people who listened to your podcast had to go back in and re-download and purposefully re-subscribe again in a way and reset their settings.

I got to run for another call. Thank you, Tom.

One other thing I want to mention regarding iTunes. We’re talking about some different changes, but there was one big fundamental change made with the Apple Podcasts app and on iTunes. That is when you subscribed to their app if you as a listener who listens to podcasts, if you had a period of time where you were so busy and you didn’t get around to listening to certain podcasts, then the Apple Podcasts app would stop automatically downloading it to your phone. It was with iOS 11 update and when that happened, all of a sudden, people who hadn’t listened to a podcast in a long time, but you were getting downloads from them, it was probably a false download. People weren’t listening, even though they were subscribed. They’re getting a new episode and iOS 11 comes out and if you as a listener hadn’t listened in two weeks, it stopped downloading them automatically. When you go into your app, you could say, “I do want those. I’m still subscribed. I still want to get them downloaded.” You could force it to download so you can still get everything, but that happened. Certain changes like that can affect your downloads. We’re talking about some other apps, but that one with iTunes was significant. Any other questions from the group? John Livesay hasn’t been on with us often. It’s great to have him. How are you, John?

I’m good.

PDZ 15 | Position Yourself On iTunes

Position Yourself On iTunes: The success of your podcast is not about how many downloads you get. It’s about building your network and the quality of those relationships you build with the guests.

 

What’s new in your podcasting world?

I did a TV show called Good Morning La La Land and they wanted to hear about the book and the podcast, how to use the podcast to grow your business for people who are watching the show that targets women. I talked about conquering the three faces of fear that I do in my keynotes and how it’s important to get someone to help you and not go on it alone and all that good stuff.

You are really out there. You’re always getting on TV shows it seems in different places. It’s interesting to see what they’re interested in. They want to know what the podcast. You’re finding people that are asking more about it.

One of the three hosts of the show had started a podcast. I’d given her some advice that you had given me a long time ago, which is it’s not about how many downloads you get. It’s about building your network and the quality of those relationships you build with the guests. She actually opened the segment with that. I’m like, “We’re going there. Here we go. Let’s go on the ride.” It wasn’t how I pitched myself to get on, but it became a topic which was great. When I give a keynote and all that stuff, it’s a big part of the authority and credibility. Being an author, being a podcast host and how many countries your podcast is heard, it all creates that buzz. My TEDx Talk that I worked for a year and a half on getting, I literally had to walk my own talk of not taking rejection personally.

I applied in over fifteen different places and they have thousands of people for a very limited number of slots. That will come out and that becomes a whole another strategy of how do you get the views on your TEDx Talk for social proof. Putting it into all the show notes going forward. That will be the core video as opposed to a TV segment that we have now. It will be a fascinating case study I think because then you guys could start approaching all the people who’ve given TEDx Talks that might be wanting to do a podcast who need views and say, “Here’s the case study of how to use a podcast to get people to watch your TEDx Talk.” It could be an interesting case study.

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You should be talking about it. You’re a little different because you record your episodes so far ahead, six months ahead at least. For those of you out there, John recorded everything at least through August if not beyond. Now you have the TEDx Talk and you want to promote that. How are you going to promote that in your current episodes? You could promote that obviously in your audio show. You could perhaps change the intro to your show if you want it to or run an audio promotion within your shows about your TEDx Talk and utilize that as a way to get the word out about that. That would be great.

In two weeks, we’ll brainstorm on what new recordings I might want to slop out to put in there. Putting that in the show notes as a link for every episode going forward even if it’s recorded three months ago and then swapping out the TV clip that we’re using now. That’s going to be a big hook because there’s a lot of people that are wanting to be keynote speakers and don’t know how to do it. Maybe they have a podcast, maybe they don’t. Maybe they have a TEDx Talk, but if you start lining all these things up, a podcast turns into a book, turns into getting on a TV, turns into a TEDx Talk. Then we have a formula that can help a lot of other keynote speakers go, “I need to use that.”

You have an authority platform. You are definitely a prime example of using all those different facets of it, having turned a bunch of your episodes into a book and then having used it as a stepping stone to being a speaker. Then a paid speaker and now the TEDx Talk, you’re the shining example.

The ecosystem of getting your startup funded was where I was interviewing a lot of investors for those relationships, now it’s shifted to interviewing a lot of potential speaking agents who might want to represent me and having them be on the podcast. They’re so flattered because they’re behind the scenes all the time. It helped me get a speaking agent in Hong Kong by having her episode, Priscilla Chan, you might remember. Then I go, “She hasn’t booked me quite yet,” but I keep in front of her by going, “I was just on TV, here’s a clip” and then two weeks later, “Here’s my TEDx talk.” You’re not bugging your agent, but you’re constantly showing them why you’re relevant. That’s what agents and event planners are looking for is are you staying current? Are you producing content that keeps you relevant to the audience?

That’s a great point, John. Thank you for sharing that. There’s a tremendous value in your back catalog and episodes that you’ve done, especially if they’re evergreen topics. Staying relevant and continue to produce current episodes is still very important. It is helping fuel your websites with Google keyword rankings. We experienced that during a client call. I totally forgot about this. This is going to be a good little story. We experienced the power of a podcast and a blog post. It was the April 27th client call. As we’re on the client call like this, Alexandra over to the side is like raising her hands and was shocked. All this stuff is happening and we’re trying to pay attention to what we’re doing here. What she found is we had a Feed Your Brand podcast episode that published that morning. It was published at 3:00 AM Pacific time, 6:00 AM Eastern so commuters would have it on their phones if they’re subscribers. The blog posts were published at the same time.

PDZ 15 | Position Yourself On iTunes

Position Yourself On iTunes: There is power in what your podcast and your blog post can do in terms of getting attention, whether good, bad or indifferent.

 

We got an email during the client call or Alexandra did to our general email for the show, from the CEO of Blubrry, who is another podcast host. They make PowerPress, the plugin that some of you either may have used in the past or may still be using to a certain extent. He was not happy because he thought we were trashing their software in our episode, which we did not. The first indicator when I was reading his email was, “Did he read the blog post? Did he listen to the episode?” I think he had an assistant who probably got a Google alert because of keywords that led them to our episode and our blog post. He thought what we had said in our episode was inaccurate about their plugin. In fact, we’re quite complimentary about their plugin. This episode was about podcast websites and we were talking about the different platforms you could build your website on, WordPress, Wix, Squarespace is becoming pretty popular and things like that.

We were saying from our experience, WordPress is the best platform. PowerPress was mentioned in context with that. We actually said, “It’s a fine plug-in. It’s not our favorite, but there’s certainly nothing wrong with it and it does certain things very well.” This ended up into this huge thing where like, “How did they find out about this episode so quick? Were they subscribers?” It turns out it was a Google alert and Alexandra then, as this all unfolded, typed in three different keyword phrases into Google. This is all of eleven hours after the blog post was published. She typed in podcast websites, best podcast websites and worst podcast websites. The keyword phrase in our blog post that we optimized it for, which you can only optimize it for one keyword phrase, was just generally podcast websites. On all three of those keyword terms, our blog post was coming up on the very first page of Google search that day, eleven hours after the post was put up.

We didn’t know that was going to happen. We’ve never seen that quick of a response. We’ve seen it with other clients post within two to three days. It ends up on the first page of Google search for certain search terms, but we’d never seen it happen that fast. If you Google best podcast websites, worst podcast websites or just podcast websites, the post was either right at the top, number one or number four. I think one of them was number seven, but it was on the first page of Google. That is a great case study in the power of what your podcast and your blog post can do. We got the attention, good, bad or indifferent, of the CEO of Blubrry, which is a pretty big corporation that makes WordPress plug-in that’s on 85,000 websites or something like that. It got the word out.

I want to share getting the word out. Is anyone listening to your podcast that can become a client and hire you? Here’s a recent case study to consistently produce content. This guy started listening to my podcast and I posted in the chat what he wrote to me. He’s actually using the metaphor I used in the commercial about how I help people like getting across the river. He’s hired me already from listening to the podcast. I’m like, “It’s working. There’s a funnel happening.”

Definitely and we hear this from most of our podcast clients in one way or another. Everybody measures success in different ways. Scott Carson has literally had hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into real estate notes with him from listeners of the podcast who did not know him any other way. They had not met him prior. Then we’ve had others like a chiropractor in New Jersey. You’d think, “This was a local business. How’s podcast worldwide going to help it?” In the first 90 days, he got a dozen new patients from people who listen to the podcast. He did have a worldwide audience. He was getting questions internationally that he was happy to answer. Even at his local practice, he got a dozen new patients who the lifetime value of a patient for him is significant. It was definitely more than paying for what he was doing with the podcast. He continues to pour more fuel into it. Now he’s getting into marketing products for his business and his podcast name. He’s selling those over on his website and on Amazon, expanding that into physical products, which is neat.

I wanted to throw out one more thing because of who you guys are and how great you are. When you get big brands like Coca-Cola, you versus all the other people they could hire, including their own internal production company, it speaks volumes to everyone who’s lucky enough to be part of your network. The quality is there. The show notes, everything. I keep getting rave reviews. If a big brand like Coca-Cola, which the last time I checked has $5 billion in revenue, is using you to produce their podcast, to create their relationships with the CMOs that sell Pepsi at their fast food restaurants and hotel chains as opposed to selling Coca-Cola instead of Pepsi. The podcast becomes another tool when they’re out there selling to a restaurant or whatever the fast food chain is saying, “One of the perks for selling Coke versus Pepsi is you could be on our podcast and we give you exposure as to what your branding strategy is.” Even on a big level like that, who do they pick to use you? It’s fantastic that you have the quality and the value of what you’re offering that allows Coca-Cola to justify internally. You can imagine how many hoops that was to jump through and not using the internal people.

Thank you, John, we appreciate that. The ones that surprised me the most are the entertainment companies and magazine companies that use us. We do Popular Mechanics and O, The Oprah Magazine. I always think of them as these are companies that are doing digital content. They’re doing lots of blogs and doing all of that and yet they still want to outsource to us. I have to say that one was more surprising to me over the last year that we’ve grown in those publications. It’s because it’s a whole different world for them. A podcast is a whole different world and they recognize that being an expert in the particular category is a benefit to them. It has to be treated differently.

As you know, John, and pretty much everybody on here, I write for a publication and we do these podcasts. I have to say sometimes I cringe at our blog posts because they’re so wordy and they are all of these things, but the reality is that you can’t argue with the power of them and the combination of doing both and they recognize that. If nobody else has any questions, we’ll start to wrap it up here. Sometimes it’s a longer subject and a deeper dive. Sometimes it’s a short subject and a lot of discussions and I want to thank you all for participating. John, especially for coming on and sharing your story and giving your endorsement. I do appreciate that.

It’s my pleasure.

Thank you so much.

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